Interview
with Augustine Lungu and Benne Banda of Footers
Augustine
Lungu and Benne Banda performed Footers at
the Assembly Rooms, as part of the Edinburgh
Festival Fringe.
Footers
is a story about two irrepressible chancers who
travel the streets of Lusaka meeting con men,
evangelists and street girls. The performance was
supported by Visiting Arts and presented by UK Arts
International and Shay Linehan Productions. With
additional support from British Council Zambia.
Both
Augustine and Benne were kind enough to take time
out of their busy schedule for an interview, which
took place 12th August, 2003.
John
Kundu - Tell me a bit about your backgrounds and
influences
Augustine
-
It
all started during my primary and secondary school
years, where I got involved with the dramatic
society of that school. Actually the story of how I
started was almost an accidental one. I was caught,
at a young age, mimicking my teacher very well and
instead of being punished by the Principal, he
suggested that I took the lead role of Joseph in the
school Nativity Play. I never looked back.
After
school I joined the local theatres and basically
attended a number of theatre courses, some were
quite formal including a two-week course sponsored
by the British Council. I stayed in the arts and was
involved in the administration of the National
Theatre Association for which I am serving on the
National Committee as President. I
met Benne whilst we were both cast for two different
plays. In one of the scenes we felt we were so good
that we decided to start working on our own ideas
and that's how the play Footers came about.
Benne
-
My
background isn't very different either. I started
theatre in a way of accidental involvement. I got
involved in primary school dramas, like Christmas
plays and things like that. Way back then, I was at
an audition for a production by a professional
theatre company in Zambia. My teacher had so much
confidence in me that she asked the company to take
me on regardless. So they gave me a small part,
reciting poetry, which was used to connect a few
scenes here and there. I considered that as my entry
point as I won an award when the production
performed at a big festival. Everybody was
amazed by my performance, as I was so young. Since
then I've never looked back either. I've grown into
the theatre realm and have met people in various
disciplines - artistically - and they've been very
encouraging. At one point my parents were a bit
worried because in my country, in fact in most
African Communities, the arts are looked at as a
hobby. So everyone was like: "You want to take
theatre on full time, how will you work, how will
you live, where will you get your money from?"
But it's taken a lot of determination, even though
you get hit left right and centre and face a few
threatening experiences and once in a while start to
think: "Maybe I should quit and get a job as a
salesman".
I
had an uncle who was into movies and he was a great
admirer of Sidney Poitier - he used to say:
"One day you'll grow up to be like Sidney
Poitier". So I decided to look up his films and
I found that he was one of the first black actors to
get an Oscar, so to a larger extent he had quite a
large influence on me.
Other
influences have been my involvement with Protest
Theatre. I was involved with a company called
Tikwiza, which did what they could to inform people
about the need to have a free South Africa.
That's how I fell in love with a lot of South
African Productions where I learnt about people like
John Kani, who performed a lot of Athol Fugard
plays.
At
that point I was involved in larger groups. But
later, like Augustine mentioned, we got more out of
small-cast productions. They were easier to move
around and function in. This is now our preference -
to be in 2/3-man productions of hard-hitting
performances.
One
day you're performing in Lusaka, the next you're
performing at the Assembly Rooms, how did that come
about?
Benne
-
Well
Footers was born 2 or 3 years ago. Whenever
we performed it in Lusaka, Kitwe or Livingstone, we
had packed houses, because we related so much to the
local community. At that point, we thought that was
as far as it would go. However, when we took it to
the Harare Festival of the Arts, shows were sold
out, and we would get standing ovations every night.
We then thought we had to make it bigger and play it
to more audiences. There are many festivals around
the world, from the Grahams Town Festival, The
Harare International Festival of the Arts and the
Edinburgh Festivals. For us the best is Edinburgh
and that's what we aimed for. So we thought lets
do it, how do we get this show to Edinburgh? Let's
make some contacts and find out how to do this.
I
came to the UK for a seminar on theatre, human
rights and good governance because most of the
productions we've done had a link to good governance
and tolerance. Whilst here, I met Jane Plastow
(Senior Lecturer in Theatre Studies, Leeds) who is a
theatre lecturer at Leeds University. She helped us
by getting Footers on a university circuit in
the UK as she thought some people might be
interested in the production as a study piece.
That's how we came back with Footers with the
help of the British Council, Lusaka, they linked us
to about six UK universities. They also suggested
that we meet with Visiting Arts because they have a
lot of useful contacts. Next thing we knew we
were in London, meeting with Nelson Fernandez (Head
of Performing Arts and Training, Visiting Arts). He
contacted a few people, and that's how we got in
touch with Jan Ryan, UK Arts International. She then
sent a few people to see the shows that were touring
the universities and they thought Footers was
good enough. So when we went back home we were so
glad to get an invitation to perform at the Fringe.
It was a dream come true.
Augustine
- Yes,
especially at the Assembly Rooms, which is one of
the best venues at the Fringe. We're sharing the
stages with some of the best names here. Back home,
we're well known because we're on TV, but to come
here and find out that we're sharing the stage with
companies from Australia and the USA, we felt like
we were finally world-class now, and it's all very
exciting. I'd like to add that we wanted to make
this show to have not only local appeal, but also
one that would discuss universal issues - so
wherever we took it, people would understand it. The
challenge sometimes is to do a show that is
appreciated at home, then take it somewhere else and
manipulate so that everyone gets it. You see it
may appear so alien here, especially as its a comedy
where the jokes are sometimes locally based. We
tried as much as possible make it a universal story
- by interacting with the various audiences - its
interesting to see how people react differently to
different things.
Benne
-
There
was one experience, which almost put us off. In
Norwich when we had the study tour, we had an
audience of students who were taking notes, as Footers
would be discussed at their next lecture.
Augustine
- They
came in with their notebooks and watched every
single movement with intense concentration; they
didn't even allow themselves to enjoy the show.
Benne
- Midway
we had a five-minute break and wondered whether we
were getting through to them. However, at the end of
the performance we received a standing ovation.
Later on, we asked the students why they weren't
relaxing and enjoying the show at the time? And they
replied that the lecturer was going to ask them
loads of questions so they had to take notes and
concentrate hard, but they absolutely loved it. So
it kind of settled our minds a bit because at one
point we thought we couldn't take Footers
anywhere.
What
were your thoughts when you first saw the Assembly
Rooms, the stage and seeing your names and faces on
the posters in the foyer?
Augustine
- The
first thing that came to my mind was "Now where
was the rest of Zambia to see this!" Where's
the camera crews from Zambian TV to just broadcast
this and say, "Look guys, we've arrived on the
international scene". We walked through and saw
these brilliant rooms, the actors' lounge and the
actors' bar. This incredible front-of-house,
where you walk from to reach this beautiful hall
with magnificent lighting and sound equipment and we
just said "Look, we're here!". We were
bowled over and I just thought I'm so glad this has
happened in my lifetime, it was great and
there's plenty to take back home.
Benne
-
For
me it was a very sobering experience. I've been to a
number of world festivals, like the World Village
Festival, Helsinki and the Holders Season in
Barbados, but when I walked into the Assembly Rooms
the place was more than I expected. I really felt
humbled; there are not that many people, especially
from our sorts of backgrounds that have actually
made it this far. I stood there thinking:
"I've come to the Assembly Rooms to show what
my country is worth".
I'm
sure you've noticed during our shows, we hang our
national flag on the side of the stage... that is
something that we pledged to do each and every
night. It's fascinating that it is us on this stage
and not someone else. The magnificent farewell we
received back home made us feel very proud. I know
the audiences here are not as great in numbers as we
have back home, but each and every show that we have
put out has had it's own telling effect on our
performance, and I just think: "We can't end it
here!"
You
are the first ever Zambian Company to perform at the
Festivals? Is there a responsibility in representing
Zambia; is it a great joy, or a huge burden?
Augustine
- It's
a mix of both. We know that this is the only entry
from Zambia so far in any of the disciplines at this
Festival. So the shows we perform must be the best,
otherwise we will be remembered as those guys from
Zambia who left no mark. There might be some
other Zambian companies who would like to perform
here in the future so if the show is nothing to
write about then we're all stumped. Also there's
a big sense of pride, two characters, both from
nowhere, had a dream and here it is... the dream
became true. Before the shows, people came and told
us that they didn't know much about Zambia. One
journalist came to us and researched about Zambia
and said: "I remember the name of the president
and that's all I know". He then asked:
"So, what is Zambia about?" We said go and
see the show. For example the title Footers
comes from a Zambian colloquialism, which means
'walkers'. Afterwards, he got it, as the performance
is so representative of our country. So in a way,
we're like 'ambassadors'... but it is a burden too,
because we need to make sure that we represent
Zambia correctly.
Benne
- We're
here with the hope of opening more doors. We may
be the first ever act from Zambia to perform at the
Festivals... we do not want to be the last! More
than anything, we would love more acts to come over,
as Zambia is culturally and artistically rich. It is
something that we hope, as Zambians having entered
in this Festival, will create more opportunities so
that next year programmers will say: "There was
this company from Zambia that did extremely well,
what more do they have to offer?"
How
have you found the Edinburgh audiences?
Augustine
- It
varies. The first sets were curious. They sat and
wondered what's happening and kept referring to
their programmes or brochures. The second day we had
an audience almost split into two; those that were
enjoying themselves and those that were reviewing
the shows and generally being critical. It's
quite funny that early in the week we have a
critically cultured audience sitting bolt upright
and reviewing things, towards the weekend we have a
more mixed and relaxed audience, looking for fun.
We're getting through but every audience influences
the next one. With audiences looking for fun, you
tend to get huge applause - with audiences 'analysing'
you're every move, it's different. At home its
different as the show becomes quite interactive.
This is an Edinburgh version so there's plenty that
we've learned how to deal with audiences and the
more shows we do the more we're clicking with the
audience. Edinburgh is known for comedy, so we know
the funnier the piece is, the more positive the
reaction from the people will be. We're working hard
to perfect the show.
Benne
-
What
I'm glad about is that our audiences are growing.
Initially when the Festival started, people were
looking out for the big names, people they've heard
about, the people they've seen on TV or heard about
from past Festivals. But in our own small way, we
have managed to convince the people who've seen our
show to spread the word. That way we've noticed
quite a growth. Fascinating as it is, we know the
Edinburgh Audience are very critical, but to a
larger point, it is also charming to be greeted by
people on the streets that have seen your show. It
makes you feel noticeable and you think you've made
a mark somewhere. I hope they get bigger because as
a performer that's all you yearn for.
Are
there any problems or frustrating things that have
happened? Things you just didn't expect?
Augustine
- We
didn't expect things to be this smooth. We've been
to other festivals and we've had hitches and we
expect them here. The only thing that I think is a
dampner is that we have so many shows taking
place in one venue so we have around 15 mins of
changeover time. Sometimes the previous show
overruns so you've got to rush to get things set up.
The lighting hasn't worked to our advantage either
only because it's something we've had to share so we
had to cut down on a few things as Footers
works a lot with spot lights. Otherwise,
everything's been fine.
Benne
-
The
audience-size has been a bit frustrating. When
you're used to a 500 strong audience there (Zambia),
it was difficult in the beginning to perform in
front of 15 or 20 curious people, strolling in
testing the water here. That put me off a bit to
be honest. Edinburgh is also an expensive place to
be, when you're not as well funded you really have a
big problem to get around. Big companies that have
been here before actually have large adverts in the
newspapers about their shows, but on a shoestring
budget you can't afford that. So it feels like
something is lacking... I mean Ross Noble has his
face on taxis everywhere.
Augustine
- Mind
you we are first entrants and not many people knew
about us. I mean they might be thinking "Hey
they're from Africa, let's check them out" so
that might attract them. However, the significant
thing to remember is that the audiences are growing.
Benne
- I
guess what I'm trying to say is that with this first
hand information and experience now, we would do a
lot of things differently if we came back again.
Have
you had a chance to meet and network with the other
performers here at the Assembly Rooms?
Augustine
- We
had two pronged approached to this whole thing. One
we wanted to come out and show people what can come
out of a small country like Zambia, and secondly, we
wanted to network, meet other artists, meet
promoters and tour organisers and get through a
process of watching other people work, exchanging
and learning new ideas. We've been working closely
with 78th Street Theatre Lab who perform Boy
Steals Trains from the USA, we've been spending
time together and I think that interaction has
benefited both sides, exchanging ideas and talking
of possible future collaborations and things like
that. One thing that has impressed me is the high
number of women artists working on solo shows, like
Thin Walls by Alice Eve Cohen, a one women story
which she writes and stars in it. There's a
possibility we might be working with Alice, because
we have a forum in Zambia called Women in Theatre,
which is a region that she is interested in. It's
been very beneficial to us. You see our show is an
ever-adjusting show, we're always fine-tuning it and
I'm sure the people who saw it on the first day
would see a better one on the last day, although
don't wait for the last day to see it.
Benne
- Working
with UK Arts International has been useful too. Our
being here is due to UK Arts International and the
confidence they have in us. Also interaction with
other artists such as Linda Marlowe has been very
beneficial for us. She is very experienced and has
done many great shows like Berkoff's Women
and No Fear! which are one-woman productions
that give you such a big challenge because if she
can make it to that point through determination and
hard work then maybe so can we. This afternoon we
watched Rajesh Gopie doing Out of Bounds a
one-man act, which was brilliant, the guy plays
seven roles and plays them well. Things like that
give us the challenge to do better. Def Poetry
Jam shows you that there's other ways of
presenting the same message. We've fed off a lot of
the other artists here.
Augustine
- And
we do hope that they have fed from us.
Were
there any particular performances you liked at the
Festivals?
Augustine
-
Demetri
Martin's If I..., Peepolykus' Mind Bender,
and Linda Marlowe's No Fear!. The show that
touched me the most is Thin Walls (Alice Eve
Cohen). It's an autobiography - one woman
telling her story through her neighbours. What
struck me was just how frank it was, she's telling
her own story but in a direct way, the scenes don't
hide anything. I mean in one scene, the neighbour
describes how her and her husband are in bed. I had
a chance to talk to her. We speak to the people who
are behind the shows if we can... it's all useful.
Benne
- Twelve
Angry Men,
beautiful dialogue, beautiful stuff, very strong, 12
people on stage with just a table and 12 chairs. The
Tiger Lillies was out of this world. Boy
Steals Train (78th Street Theatre Lab, USA) the
physical movement, changing of characters and the
way the story is told, and the touching story of
Darius is just so magnificent. I saw things like Water
Engine (78th Street Theatre Lab, USA), James
Campbell's performances, I also saw Peepolykus, Def
Poetry Jam, and the Mika Haka Show. I
think each and every show has it's own plus which
you pick up and you get to appreciate why they have
come to the Edinburgh Festivals. There's also
people like Jo Brand, who is an all time favourite,
I've managed to see her show twice.
Augustine
-
It's
like a rainbow, it's coloured with variety and
there's plenty to learn from that variety. If you
want to sit and write a poem you could get
inspiration from left right and centre, it's easier.
It's going to be easier to work on our next
production, as we'll be drawing from inspirations
all over.
Please
Could you tell me a little bit about the history of
Zambian
Theatre?
Augustine
-
It's
one thing you go into knowing fully well that you're
not going to get much out of it. It's an upward
struggle. Even for acceptance it's a struggle.
Unless you're phenomenally successful, then no ones
going to be looking. Most of the time you won't get
the support that you need. But there are some
institutions that support the arts generally. We
have the National Arts Council whose job it is to
regulate the arts in Zambia. The problem is the
funding situation is bad. It survives on funds from
the Nordic Countries which are all on short term
contracts, 2 - 4 years, so you don't know what's
going to happen if you're planning something long
term. There are some national associations that
have been put in place, which still require support
from the artists themselves. I am on the National
Executive of the National Theatre Arts Association,
which gets it's funding from the Arts Council and
subscription fees from the artists. There's not much
you can get back in terms of grants and bursaries
for artists. So it's a difficult situation. However,
cultural arts being the African way of life still
survives. Even without funds artists still carve,
paint, stage impromptu theatre performances...
somehow it still continues. It would be
wonderful if it was a sector that was well funded.
It would reduce the rate of unemployment and develop
people's natural talent. I hope it will move into
that direction. There's also the political aspect.
Zambia is not an economically strong country, so the
Government is always looking to change where they
place their resources to improve things.
Benne
-
Right
from the beginning people in Zambia have been
programmed into thinking that the arts is something
you do after a hard days work. The majority of
the people think that it's your hobby or something
that you do for fun: "You're going to play,
when are you going to work!". It's not only
a family thing, it's the way a community thinks. As
a result it's difficult to get people to pay to see
a show as people feel: "Why should I come and
pay to see you play". It's difficult to get
people to appreciate that this is an informal sector
that can develop into a formal set-up, take in a lot
of people and work at poverty reductions. I mean the
two of us do nothing but the arts. We have families
to look after. Its something that has worked but its
just a difficult thing to do, there's not that many
people coming out. Here people come to see the
shows. Back home, it's difficult to make a living on
theatre alone. That's why we do other things:
Augustine presents a lottery show on TV and I
present a storytelling programme for children to
create other income. But still it all survives, some
of the artists manage to stick in there and fight it
out. To come here, for instance, It was difficult to
raise funds because we were coming for one month. It
had to take a foreign airline, British Airways, to
actually sponsor the flights; we couldn't get money
out of the local business houses. If you put
something in, hats off to you! But up to date, we
are here on a low budget. People didn't recognise
the potential of putting anything into a project
that was going to sell the country internationally.
An audience of a million passes through the Fringe.
What
is the situation with regards to educating young
theatre
practitioners
in Zambia?
Benne
-
Back home, we have very little formal training in
the arts, especially in theatre. Theatre management
skills, acting skills, script writing skills. People
can only learn from experience, because they've
written before, been criticised before then they get
better. We are a good example of that, we have
developed our own scripts, not out of having formal
training in script writing but from encountering
situations which we write about, presenting it to
people and learning from their reactions. What we
hope would happen is that institutions like Visiting
Arts organise residencies for performing artists
from Zambia and link us up with people in the UK so
we can develop and exchange ideas. It would take
some time to set up institutions in Zambia that
would offer training... but its difficult to wait,
as people need to be trained now.
Augustine
- We
rely on individual talents, as we are a writing duo.
We would like to remain actors but there aren't many
writers about. We feel we have a lot to say. In this
respect sometimes the training should be
multi-skilled. We understand that the facilities and
resources for training are not there, but if you
have a captive audience in a learning environment
then it helps you develop. Back home it's just
talent and determination. You spend half your life
trying to see what works and what doesn't work,
because you were not trained for it, where as if you
had a bit of training then you know what works and
what doesn't.
What
kind of advice would you offer a Zambian company
keen to perform
at
next year's Festival Fringe?
Augustine
- There's
a need to go back and share what we have experienced
so we will be having a series of workshops when we
return to Zambia. We hope we're not the last group
to come here from Zambia. In terms of advice, it
would be good to come here on your own for research
and see what's going on. I think it's important.
We're adjusting here because I'd like to think that
we are smart but also we're a small company. I know
it would be difficult for a larger group to adjust
to a place like this, especially if it's their first
time and they start performing straight away. But I
think it would be manageable if they can establish
contacts with promoters and venues before they
travel then it would be great. If they get their
itinerary sorted out in time, that would also help. And
as Benne mentioned earlier, it's expensive so they
must come fully prepared for that.
Benne
-
My
advice would be to get your production crisp. Timing
in this place really matters, once you mess up your
timing, then the repercussions are huge, you can't
run over for four or five minutes. We had that
happen and it wasn't good. Also the smaller your
cast the better. It's more manageable. Marketing is
very important like leaflets, flyers and websites.
There are many artists with their own websites, so
that people learn about them before they come to the
Festival. To sum up: the marketing, the
preparation, financial aspects and a manageable
cast... that's what you need. Also try to
negotiate a shorter run. Then you can get the shows
out of the way without running out of steam. We had
an advantage as UK Arts International helped with
the marketing, but we ourselves have had to run out
onto the streets and hand out leaflets, making sure
that people come to see the show. You end up not
relaxing and warming up for the performances,
instead, you end up rushing around handing out
flyers then running straight onto the stage!
What
are your plans for the future?
Benne
- Take
the show to bigger venues. We live on theatre, if we
get ten venues booking us for 6 weeks each, then
that would be excellent. The whole idea is to get
the show out as much as possible. UK Arts
International are working at it. We're also
hoping to do more networking while we're here so
that by the 25th, which is our last show, we would
have made many connections and say that our schedule
for next year is set!
Augustine
- We
have a few other shows, not just Footers. We
need to go back home and tune up the shows from what
we've learnt here. I hope that the world has not
seen the last of us. We're preparing for the
UK-Spring tour of Footers with UK Arts
International, but there's more to us than this.
ENDS
For
more details contact:
UK
Arts International
Second
Floor
6 Shaw Street
Worcester WR1 3QQ
Telephone
(01905) 26424 Fax (01905) 22868
Website
www.ukarts.com